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Post by Admin on Jan 26, 2014 17:23:41 GMT
Part of the fun is seeing character growth, but at the same time if a player levels a character for years they can be almost untouchable. Where's the balance?
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Post by Mathiu on Jan 26, 2014 17:54:51 GMT
AS i was saying in the other thread, level cap imo is a bad idea, this is not real life this is a game, games do have a cap, but they take a few hours to reach, but this is a rpg game in short, so it will have a higher level cap. Most people see small caps, they are playing some games, older games, or dnd, because it is easy to die in those.
A cap, means people will most likely become an alt whore, if you do not gain something graspable while playing, unless you have a great storyline you are MUCH more likely to restart with another char and another. While this is okay, it honestly punishes a lot of other people in many ways.
places I have went and rped to in the past, people would continue to allow weaker people to win at times. Why? Simple, for RP. if only for RP for fun.
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Post by velvet on Jan 26, 2014 18:51:53 GMT
I'd suggest not having a level cap. Sure, it's realistic, but it's not nearly as much fun once someone's character is a maximum level and basically has no room left to grow. It's a bit demoralizing. If anything, make levels mean less the higher up one gets, but don't put a hard cap on the characters. Roleplaying is fun without the incentive for gain, but many people like having something to work toward.
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Post by crow on Jan 26, 2014 19:21:41 GMT
I think a level cap is a good idea.
One need look no further than the atrocious lengths they had to go through in TLI to make questing with other people remotely doable. (It involved ditching the entire combat system and give everybody regardless of ability or level a single d10).
A level cap at the very least ensures that a good number of people will be able to fight side by side.
Lower level people climbing up to join their piers over time.
Imagine a low level questing together with a high level warrior and idolize their power, over time climbing up through the levels and able to stand shoulder to shoulder with their role-model and actually have adventures together that don't involve the lvl 10 getting 1 shot and the lvl 100 oneshotting everything else..
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Post by almondus on Jan 26, 2014 19:58:17 GMT
I don't think that a level cap is a good idea.
Progression is still kind of fun even if you're a higher level. And it doesn't make sense to have a player that's at level cap not getting something that a lvl 1 player gets; the chance to improve and see growth!
Right now it seems that a lot of the blow back to having an open ended leveling system is that it could be abused on the lower levels and that by having a max level it would make it easier to tune quests and events to. I'll take my views on each of these one at a time, and though I don't claim to have the answers, I do hope that my views shed some light as to why I'd like it to be open.
Higher levels abusing power!
I don't think it happens as often as some might think it does. And if it's a concern there are ways around it that can actually promote player based rp! We could easily adopt a system where a person defending from more then one source in a round takes a hit to their defensive rolls (to be determined). That way even if the uber knight of twinkdom faces the two or three people he's been picking on at once, he'd have a defensive modifier of paper and likely get overwhelmed with their three attacks (one for each) to his single attack a round. Sure, with enough levels the gap might be surmountable, but by having a % based hit to defense it'd make levels not as important as social interaction in the game.
Wait, social interaction?
I believe that social interaction is why people keep coming back to rp the characters they've had for years in an online rpg. You can see it in everything from the irc RP communities to even mainstream mmo's like world of warcraft. I think if we keep promoting and fostering social interaction at ever level of the game we can from the ground up, that we'll end up with a better game.
I get that there's concern over levels getting way out of control, but I think that there may be ways to have our cake and eat it too with this.
Level caps allow for easier matching of players for quests and events!
Yes, yes they do.
As a stand alone though I don't know if that benefit out ways those that are inherent in having an open system. Again, there might be a work around to be had. As you know Crow I LIKE having venues where everyone can come together in a weighted tournament and really enjoy running quests. I tried my hand at weighting systems before the CLAW system and was delighted to see it put in effect and the success you've seen with it. Why not just look at the system we have set up and make another kind of 'weighted teir' to it for special cases?
In particularly with quests, they seem to flow much better when there's a limit of 3 or 4 questers along for the ride, and it won't be all that hard to find 2 or 3 people in the same level range on these things. It hasn't proved to be an issue with tli.
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Zex
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Post by Zex on Jan 26, 2014 20:36:24 GMT
As I said before, I don't see why having a level cap would effect anything in a negative manner. People are going to stop playing their character just because they stop getting stronger? So, you plan on throwing away hours, and months, hell... possibly years invested in a character just because you don't get new toys to play with? (Mind you, you likely then have tons of cash when at high level, so even if you aren't gaining new abilities naturally, there are plenty of nifty magical items you could afford to make up for such.)
So you hit level 20, or level 30. You can't gain any more levels, I guess that means you turn around and tell your characters' loved ones, children, friends, business partners, rivals, etc, etc... "Welp, hit level cap, no use being around anymore."
That just sounds absurd to me. Honestly.
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lyanna
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Post by lyanna on Jan 26, 2014 20:44:25 GMT
As I said before, I don't see why having a level cap would effect anything in a negative manner. People are going to stop playing their character just because they stop getting stronger? So, you plan on throwing away hours, and months, hell... possibly years invested in a character just because you don't get new toys to play with? (Mind you, you likely then have tons of cash when at high level, so even if you aren't gaining new abilities naturally, there are plenty of nifty magical items you could afford to make up for such.) So you hit level 20, or level 30. You can't gain any more levels, I guess that means you turn around and tell your characters' loved ones, children, friends, business partners, rivals, etc, etc... "Welp, hit level cap, no use being around anymore." That just sounds absurd to me. Honestly. I'm with Zex here. A level cap makes sense, and there are other ways to advance a character besides levels. It's my hope that people will be mature enough that they will continue to play chars with a maxed out level. However I will also consider means a character can continue to move up in the world. Another benefit of level caps is that they prevent a character from becoming untouchable. So, if your char is in a position that makes people want to stab them, they shouldn't be so powerful that nobody can stick a knife in their back. Level caps help with this. As a compromise we could have milestones. If we use the D&D based systems we've discussed this far, perhaps going past level 20 requires an evaluation of the player and character's suitability for epic levels, and then once they get to level 30 it just becomes very hard to get any higher. A lot of things just won't give any significant XP to a level 30 so you have to do something awesome to level up your awesome char again. |
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Post by almondus on Jan 26, 2014 20:56:51 GMT
Keep in mind that if you have level caps but still have people getting better and better equipment, they'd still be 'untouchable' in the arms race ic.
You mentioned that you don't want to have characters that are untouchable. I'd like feedback on how having a system that would take percentages off of defensive roles based on how many other PC's are being fought at a time wouldn't solve that worry? Just because you might not be beatable one on one by someone that's put less time into their character wouldn't mean that you wouldn't be beatable if they went off and rped getting a few friends or hiring a few people to go track your ass down and beat ya.
It'd promote joining groups icly for protection, and I think that would be a boon to trying to have players create their own rp and have their own character goals when they show up.
Would love to hear feed back on this kind of a potential work around. |
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lyanna
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Post by lyanna on Jan 26, 2014 20:59:28 GMT
It's certainly possible Alren. I'd like to know more about what system we are using before coming up with anything concrete but that is one possible solution to that particular issue... and I do like the idea of joining groups for mutual protection and benefit.
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Zex
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Post by Zex on Jan 26, 2014 21:19:59 GMT
It is not hard to actually allow epic level play in Pathfinder, in fact I am all for it. The mechanics are there. However, epic levels do come slowly, and they should be a special treat for players who have dedicated themselves to the setting, and have -earned- those levels. In my honest opinion, I would suggest that if we do decide to use the Pathfinder system for the game, epic levels should come no quicker than 1 or 2 within a real-life year. Players should not -expect- these higher levels, they should be granted as special rewards from directly impacting the plot, and being active within it.
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Post by almondus on Jan 26, 2014 21:50:01 GMT
I think it's very sticky to choose who's 'deserving' of progressing to an epic level and who isn't. If Ops are picking out players for it then you can't get around the potential ill will it could cause in the community. I'd be more comfortable with a liner system.
Also, I don't believe just running a straight pathfinder game would be the best way to go. As I've mentioned before that system was created for a different environment then what we'll be attempting. As such I'd see cannibalizing what we can use out of it, and leaving the rest.
Currently I'm thinking of how to do just that actualy.
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Post by Mathiu on Jan 26, 2014 21:50:05 GMT
Wall O text.
Note, when I said they would ditch their character I also mentioned if they did not have constant rp, which happens to me often and many others, so they make alts, then when they finally get rp, they get it at times to the point they can NOT schedule it well. Alren can vouch this has happened to a few others as well, and no they aren't low levels.
The cap I do not like because, well Lyanna said you have to do something epic to level, what if some one isn't that creative, it seems like a barrier to lvl 19-20 in tli, where if you didn't run a quest you would be stuck. Not everyone has the time or ability to run a quest. So not doing something epic/or running, means you can play a character for YEARS and never have any scale up, so friends that do can surpass you like no other.
I can understand what you are all saying, but in truth, the flaws with a cap are more numerous than not, as Alren pointed out, barely anyone abuses their power, the worst I see is a certain Moriel who sluts himself out and gives his money for sex, and never gets in trouble for breaking the rule of prostitution in that channel. Level abuse is actually very rare, and normally only a quantity of a low tier rper, by that I mean some one who is personally just a douche. You can for example, enslave, kidnap and abuse many many of the high levels. If you just rp it out well and don't mode it.
Quest in truth, while they can be fun, to have a good quest system with different levels you have to scale the enemies stats to each person, say enemy level 20 smacks, player lvl 1. right there, that would most likely be a close to fatal blow... and why did it happen? Cause the level 20 joined in. Qdice wasn't something to hurt the game in fact it helps it more than most think, granted the dice needs revamped since rock throwing does the most damage it seems.
I am not a fans of caps or barriers that can be trivial to some and nearly impossible to others. And yes, for some quest is nearly impossible to do. Hell when they removed the level 20 requirement, Adonai jumped up to lvl 28 from 19.
Caps still do not prevent twinking. For those who don't know, twinking is a gaming term, when you give say a lvl 1 the best gear possible, then when they are level 10, the best gear possible. So unless others have a supplier, that lvl 10 will be the best player possible. The advantages are so high for those who have friends, it cripples newbies MORE than levels. In truth the only reason why high levels are bad, is because some people come in and go, 'Oh god.... I won't be able to go near them they will just kill me.. or they will enslave me!' When in truth that effect is in the like 10%, well the latter is more like 40% but yeah lol.
And on what I said before, the whole cap why it is bad, what fuels rps with stats? Levels. Role-play. Power. Role-play is a lead to the first and third of those three... they all comply with progress. If you reach a pinnacle with levels and gear... then all you have is role-play, and yes role-play fades much easier than you believe it does. Once that does, you have a maxed out character, standing there drinking and twiddling his/her thumbs... with nothing to do, so what to do on progress... new character! Rinse and repeat, it is why MMO's are a massive multi-billion form of business, you reach a pinnacle... but after many many years, and then new content comes out before you can cap it unless you are a min maxer.
And the final problem with Level caps? Min maxers... the ruin the system, they abuse it... it takes one, and that one will basically be a god if level 20 is the cap. And depending on the combat, the level 20 can kill people up to level 30, why? Because not everyone is a min maxer... they are a bad plague for almost any mmo system, textbased like rp channels or mmo style. YES they are comparable.
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lyanna
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Post by lyanna on Jan 26, 2014 22:19:15 GMT
Oh dear, a wall of text! I will have to address it a bit later  |
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Post by Mongoose on Feb 4, 2014 1:05:02 GMT
I think a level cap can work, but let's not jump the gun here. It seems the main problem is questing and character interaction between low lvls and higher godling being's. Let's address each of these problems.
Questing.
Ok, your going to run a quest. You want to make it challenging for all folks involved. So, low lvl player's are interested and you come up with a goblin raid on a trade caravan. low lever fighter's sharpen their swords, mages get all their scrolls and spells lined in a row,clerics seeks divine powers and thieves take to the shadows for that sneak attack. Great. Keep it at a low lvl. say for the quest described, 1-3 or 2-5 lvl's of your 4-8 players. Letting a 40th lvl character wipe out the whole goblin raider's, track them to their encampment and killing the whole tribe while the low lvl character's sit on their heels is stupid.
Same with those high lvl quests of demons gaining a foothold in the world should have the cap as well Say 15-20 for what I just described without going into too much detail. 1st lvl farm boy shouldn't sign up, get slapped into armor and a spear thrust into his hand for this quest. They'll get trashed.
So a cap on quest's is a good idea in my opinion
Regular interaction.
I don't really see a problem here. But then, I'm kinda new to the tli setup still. But I would figure to play your character as you would any other. weather it be with a newbe lvl 1 of a veteran lvl 40. Sure your 5th lvl fighter beat the snot outta the newbee, but the player shouldn't be crying foul if the veteran happens to be a paladin of justice. It is Role playing. Think of how your character will react after being thrown through the window. Would they be fearful of Vet's power? seek to learn from them? plot suitable revenge?
Just my couple of pennies worth
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Post by Mathiu on Feb 5, 2014 7:57:26 GMT
In truth, i don't mind a soft level cap, but a hard one? eh, eventually, you just as i said in the death policy, it will create ingame cliques and not the best type, basically i can see a hard low cap being like prison rules:
Step 1) find the biggest badass
Step 2) be their bitch
Step 3) Live.
Not all roleplayers think that far ahead, most want a class and that is their goal. But in truth, let's face it, I still and always will stick to my, once you hit cap, if you lose rp or just have no luck, you may reroll, Storylines can stay, but in my experience they are maybe half a year to a year long then vanish.
Having a low cap, would be aimed more towards a year or two long storyline possibilities in my opinion but not everyone can keep that long. Call me narrow minded if you wish, but this is from rp experience from over a decade of time... almost twelve years at least.
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